Full Text of Interview with Bruce Anderson of RENew Northfield

February 21st, 2006,

On February 3 I interviewed Bruce Anderson, Executive Director of RENew Northfield in the group’s office in downtown Northfield, Minnesota. Anderson described RENew Northfield’s ambitious plans to make its hometown self-sufficient in energy. Before the interview began, I learned that the capital letters in the group’s name grew out of an acronym for Renewable Energy for a New Northfield.

Ostrem: What is RENew Northfield currently doing to reach its goal of making Northfield self-sufficient in energy?

Anderson: We started initially focusing on utility-scale wind projects. There was a fair amount of debate at our first meetings as to what the focus of the organization should be. People fairly readily got behind the concept of working toward community energy self-sufficiency, and there was a lot of discussion about what to focus on first.

Many people made the argument that we should put our efforts into energy conservation, because that is typically where you get far and away the best return on any investment, whether it’s on the household level, the business level, or on the industrial or institutional level. And I certainly don’t disagree with that because I worked for about eight years as an energy consultant and energy auditor in the Twin Cities, and I know that’s where you’re going to get the biggest bang for the buck, the best return on investment.

However, paradoxically it may seem, I was an advocate of instead focusing on large utility-scale wind projects, with community ownership being an essential part of the development of those projects. And I did so because I felt that we really needed to grab people’s attention. We really needed to get people engaged in this and see this as something visionary, as something that the community could get behind.

And, sad to say, we’ve known for thirty years that we should be conserving energy and we should become much more energy-efficient as a society and we haven’t done it. It’s just not very sexy. People have to be whacked upside the head with economic issues before they start to get serious about saving energy.

So, that was really the primary reason that we eventually did agree to focus on wind. And it took a long time, but having one large utility-scale turbine up just outside the city limits is a big step in the right direction. That turbine alone, the 1.65-megawatt turbine owned by Carleton, produces about two percent of the electricity consumed not only in Northfield but also in the surrounding rural townships, which I consider to be an integral part of our community. So one turbine, two percent of our electricity. Not bad as far as I’m concerned. So I consider that a giant step in the right direction.

And by some time early this summer a second similar turbine will be up on the other side of Northfield. And that will be two turbines, four percent of our electricity. We’re working with a group of landowners on a multi-turbine wind project which may, optimistically, come on line in 2007. More realistically it will probably come online in 2008. This isn’t easy to do, unfortunately. But that might provide as much as another 20 to 25 percent of Northfield’s electricity.

So the wheels are turning. I feel like we’re really making headway with the wind projects. And we’re also beginning to make headway in other areas as well. For about the past year now a small number of folks have been meeting semi-regularly and working on transportation-related issues. Last spring, for example, people were encouraged to pledge to reduce the amount of solo car driving that they do. This was part of a statewide effort to get folks out of their cars. It used to be called Bebop Day, ride the bus or carpool to work. Now it’s called the Commuter Challenge.

So we took part in that here in Northfield last year. And we’re actively working to bring a very sophisticated computerized ride-sharing system to Minnesota with a coalition of folks primarily from the Twin Cities metro area. And that looks quite promising right now.

And we’re also starting to work on residential energy issues. We’re just kicking off a solar bulk-buy program that should lead to much more affordable solar thermal systems and solar photovoltaic systems for homeowners, for business owners, institutional settings or public buildings. We’re just starting to work on that right now. We hope to really launch that within about six weeks or so with a bit of a publicity bang. We’re hoping that by midsummer we’ll have the first solar installations going on and we’ll have volunteers in the Northfield Green Corps, who might be students who are recruited at the Key [a local youth center]. I’ve already talked with the folks there. They are very interested in getting some high school students involved as volunteer solar system installers. We’re hopeful that Carleton and St. Olaf students perhaps might get involved in that. And anybody who might be interested in the community as well could, whether they’re buying some solar systems to install themselves or not.

On the residential energy front we’re starting to work in partnership with other community entities—non-profit, governmental—to try to kick off a significant project that will lead to much more energy-efficient affordable housing being built in Northfield. Moderate-income families have a hard time affording housing in Northfield, because we are an expensive community to live in. I’m convinced that in the coming years or decades, utility costs are going to be a huge part of the affordability equation. We’re only beginning to see the ramping up of natural gas prices, and that’s only going to get worse in the coming years. I’ve made a lot of converts just in the last month or so. We’re going to be submitting a grant proposal within a week or so on that to try to bring greener affordable housing to Northfield. I feel very good about that.

So I feel that we’re pointed in the right direction. We have a long way to go, but we’re pointed in the right direction.

Ostrem: I’m curious about your involvement in the wind turbine projects. What were some of the specific things that you did related to thoseprojects?

Anderson: Well, you have to go back to the beginning I think to understand the role that we played, because the Carleton turbine, for example, is purely a Carleton turbine. It’s 100 percent paid for by Carleton College and zero percent paid for by RENew Northfield. But that being said I really do think that we played a critical role in making that happen. And I’ll give you an outline of why I can say that.

Back in the spring of 2001 when RENew Northfield came into being, really nobody other than perhaps myself and a handful of other crazies thought that these large-scale wind turbines were a viable proposition for Northfield. I had many people tell me that when I proposed doing this, because at that point really the only large utility-scale wind turbines that had gone up in the state of Minnesota were out in the far southwest corner—Buffalo Ridge, as it’s known. And people simply didn’t think we had a good enough wind source in this region. And for a variety of reasons I thought differently.

So I and the other folks who founded RENew Northfield went to work on trying to recruit people in the community, entities in the community, that would be willing to at least explore this. And a lot of work was done especially in the first year or two of RENew Northfield’s existence, well before Carleton put up its wind turbine, to just get people familiar with the idea that this could be done here. And this entailed writing opinion pieces for the local paper, letters to the editor, holding public meetings where we discussed whether and how this could be done. Generally just raising the level of consciousness and doing a whole lot of public education. We realized then and I realize even more fully now that for a wind project to be successful you have to have a number of things. You have to have good wind resources, you have to have accessibility to adequate electrical distribution and/or transmission lines. You have to have a willing landowner or landowners to work with. And you also need to have a community that’s willing to support it. If any one of those elements is lacking you don’t have a viable wind project.

Even if you have somebody such as Carleton who’s going to spend the money, the community might oppose it. They might not even get permission from the county to do the project. And there have been many wind projects that have gone down in flames in other parts of the country because there wasn’t community support.

So first and foremost we prepared the seedbed as it were. We really did a lot of legwork in the first couple of years to familiarize people with the concept, to educate people about the possibilities, to demonstrate that this was not something that would have to be heavily subsidized but that in fact could be done to the economic benefit of whoever did it. And then we started really demonstrating how it could be done.

We worked with the state energy office to get a wind-monitoring tower up. Initially we had started working with the Northfield Public Schools, even before Carleton became convinced that they wanted to pursue this. We started doing wind monitoring on the Northfield Middle School site, which was then just bare ground before it had been built, back in 2001-2002.

We subsequently purchased as an organization a wind-monitoring tower, a 40-meter tip-up wind-monitoring tower that we put up at no cost for both Carleton and the Northfield Public Schools on the site that was being considered. That entailed a tremendous amount of volunteer labor, and one of our founding members and our current board president, Chris Ludewig, turned himself into our in-house wind energy, data, wind-resource guru and spent countless hours educating himself on how to analyze and present wind data and wind resource analysis.

So again we provided that service at no cost to Carleton. We purchased the $7500 wind-monitoring tower, largely with donations from community supporters. We also got some grant funding in the first few years that was helpful. But we really provided what would be considered pre-development services for Carleton, and to a lesser extent for St. Olaf. We later approached St. Olaf and did wind monitoring for them. They pretty much pushed their project forward without much assistance from us because of the preparatory work that we had done with Carleton to get ready for this.

We were involved in any number of public meetings. And that was probably the most important work. People were directly invited to ask questions, to have an answer to some of their concerns about what these turbines would look like, sound like, whether they would be causing bird kill, whether they would have a negative impact on property values. It was pretty much exclusively RENew Northfield that dealt with all of those issues and sort of paved the way for the Carleton project to happen.

So I think that in a very real sense we acted as a catalyst and provided a lot of pro bono services to Carleton in essence because we really thought it was critically important that one high-profile project get done in the community, and we wanted to do everything possible to make sure that happened. We were confident that if one turbine went up, many others would follow. And I’m more confident of that now than ever.

Ostrem: As far as some of those negatives—bird kill and so on—what have you found related to the Carleton windmill? Have there been any concerns expressed?

Anderson: Not a single dead bird has been reported. And I’m happy to report that significant environmental review has been done of other major wind farms in southwestern Minnesota and no significant bird kill problem has ever been found in this state or in this area. Really the only significant bird kills that there have been elsewhere in the United States were in some early wind farms in California where wind farms were poorly sited in raptor flyway areas—mountain passes, for example—and these were also earlier generation turbines that had blades that turn very rapidly. They had lattice towers that raptors would perch on and then they would fly out into the rapidly spinning blades.

This is a completely different technology here—a tubular structural steel tower. There’s no place on the tower for birds to perch, and the blades are not turning at high r.p.m. [revolutions per minute] rates. The Carleton turbine turns at 14.4 r.p.m., and no self-respecting bird is going to fly into that.

We were confident that bird kill would not be an issue, and it has not proven to be in the first year and a half, and I’m sure that will continue to be the case.

Ostrem: How did RENew Northfield get started?

Anderson: It’s a strictly, wonderfully grassroots phenomenon. RENew Northfield was hatched in my brain in February of 2001, and I decided that I would write an opinion piece for the local paper in which I would lay out what I thought was an achievable vision of the community getting all of its electricity from locally owned, locally developed renewable resources within something like ten years. In that opinion piece I laid out how I thought that could happen and I invited people to come to a public meeting at the Northfield public library back in early March of 2001.

I’m not a particularly extroverted and public guy, so it was with some trepidation that I did this. I didn’t beat the bushes, I didn’t twist anybody’s arm. I baked some cookies and reserved the meeting room at the public library. I went there at the appointed hour and date and thought, you know, if four people turn out, I’ll be thrilled. If it’s just me, I’ll have a cookie and I’ll go home. Twenty-three people turned out for that first meeting. And again I did not twist any arms or beat any bushes to get people there. I was totally blown away and thrilled that that many people would turn out just basically on an open invitation in an opinion piece in the paper.

We had a really spirited, lively discussion that first night, talked about a broad range of issues. It quickly became apparent that this was the kind of idea that a lot of people were really very excited about. And it was not just a bunch of tree huggers—and I consider myself a tree hugger, so I don’t consider that a pejorative term. There were Carleton students, there may have been a St. Olaf student or two, there were a few retired faculty members, but there were also all sorts of folks from all walks of life—blue collar, white collar, young and old, all sorts of different perspectives, I’m sure all sorts of political persuasions. It was really exciting and very energizing.

At that very first meeting in early March of 2001 we talked about what we could do about this shared vision, because it resonated with a lot of people. It wasn’t anymore just in my head. People at the meeting, many of them had similar thoughts. It was just very exciting to realize that a lot of people thought, yeah, this is the kind of thing that we should really go for. And we talked about how we might want to make it happen.

At that very first meeting we weren’t sure exactly how this was going to play out, but I know I left that meeting, and I think most other people did as well, we felt that some kind of more or less formal organization would come out of this that would try to lead the community in that direction. And that was the birth of RENew Northfield that first March evening in 2001.

Ostrem: You mentioned that you were an energy auditor. I wondered if you could just talk a little bit about your background in the field of energy.

Anderson: Sure. I actually have a degree in biology from the University of Minnesota, and I was thrashing around back in the early 1980s trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life. Going back even before that, I had been exposed to a lot of energy-related issues. I should explain that when I was in high school in the mid-1970s, my father, who’s an electrical engineer and taught at the University of Minnesota for a number of years…, moved to Northfield to go to work for Sheldahl, at that time called the G.T. Sheldahl Company. He was their Vice President for Research and Development.

And he’s kind of a crazy guy. He’s your stereotypical nutty professor, just full of ideas and kind of a mad inventor. He was a very early solar advocate. In fact he has a patent on a solar power tower that was built in the Mojave Desert in California. So I was exposed to a lot of these ideas as a teenager. I think it was the summer of 1974, as a sixteen-year-old I helped put up some experimental solar panels on the roof of the Sheldahl building here in Northfield.So I come by this naturally. I am not a technophile, as is my father, but some of it’s rubbed off on me, as did a lot of my German-American mother’s frugality and just general saving ways. I’m very much out of step with most people of my generation, because I think conservation is virtue and frugality doesn’t have to be a dirty word, as long as you don’t carry it too far.

But that being said, I had gone through college, gotten my degree in biology, and was casting about for something to do. And I can’t remember exactly how it came about, but I think I just saw a want ad for an energy auditor for a tiny nonprofit in St. Paul. I was living in the Twin Cities at the time. And I did a little research and I thought, that sounds kind of interesting, maybe I should do that.They weren’t necessarily looking for someone experienced. They were willing to provide training. I applied and lo and behold I got hired by the Neighborhood Energy Project in St. Paul…This was the summer of 1984. Twenty-two years later they’re now the Neighborhood Energy Consortium, a thriving non-profit in St. Paul providing a range of services, all of them energy-related, from housing to transportation—interesting stuff, including a car-sharing program called HourCar.

But in any case I was hired by the Neighborhood Energy Project as an energy auditor and started doing residential energy audits. After about a year with them I went to work for the Community Action Agency in Ramsey County, Ramsey Action Programs, also doing energy audits. I did some energy workshops with the Neighborhood Energy Project. Most of the work I did with Ramsey Action Programs was low-income weatherization. We would do energy audits on low-income households, most of them single-family homes, often elderly widows living on a fixed income, older houses in dire need of some work to keep their energy bills manageable. But it was also sometimes multi-family buildings, duplexes, fourplexes, occasionally larger multi-family buildings…

And we had federal funding through the low-income weatherization program, which is still in existence to this day, to do not only the energy audits and make recommendations to them but then also to write up work orders for either our own in-house crews or…to process those for contractors who were very closely supervised to provide weatherization services: tighten up their houses, insulate attics, insulate side walls,… repair furnaces. Occasionally we would have to replace furnaces or boilers, and we could access other funds to do that.And it was a wonderful experience. Total street-level, helping folks out one-on-one, very satisfying work. And I did that for a number of years, until about 1991, at which point I decided to go back to graduate school at the Humphrey Institute at the University of Minnesota and studied energy and environmental policy…I had to do an internship as part of that program and ended up getting a full-time job with the state of Minnesota—ultimately didn’t complete my master’s degree, and I don’t regret it.

But at that point I stepped out of the energy world and was working for a small state agency that did environmental assistance. I was part of what was called a pollution prevention team, worked with industry on a variety of issues. So it wasn’t directly energy-related, but certainly a close cousin.

And then my path took a sharp veer to the left when I found myself not particularly happy working for state government. I had two very young children at the time, one and four, and I decided I would chuck my job and be a stay-at-home dad. At that point my wife Anne Larson and I decided to move back to our mutual hometown of Northfield and raise our kids.

So I was a stay-at-home dad for a number of years and my energy and environmental interests became an avocation, not a vocation. So by the time that I helped found RENew Northfield in 2001, I hadn’t actually been actively working in the energy field for almost ten years. So it was really fun to get involved with RENew Northfield and pour a lot of personal passion into that effort as a volunteer. I was happy to do that for four-and-a-half years,…and for the past few months I’ve been thrilled to be able to do it as a staff person for RENew Northfield. So, it’s been great.

Ostrem: With the solar energy options—solar heating, solar electricity—where do you recommend people start if they’re considering adding something like that to their home?

Anderson: It would always be a good idea just to do some research on your own before you seriously consider dropping thousands of dollars on a solar system. There’s a huge amount of good information on the web by now, as one might expect—such web sites as the Commerce Department, commerce.state.mn.us. That’s where the state energy office is located, and they have good information on solar. They have good information about how to assess whether or not you have a site that is suitable for solar development before you bring a contractor in to look at it, all sorts of links that you can follow. There are many other good web sites as well.

So do some research on the Internet first. Talk to people who perhaps might already have some experience with solar. Talk to some of the people you find in your research on the web.

But if you’re actually going to seriously look at doing a project, you do want to get a contractor involved and probably do a solar site analysis for you. That’s something you’ll pay for—perhaps as much as a couple hundred dollars. And they’ll be able to tell you whether or not you have a suitable site—a marginal site, good site, or an excellent site. Basically, the more sun you get, the better. No rocket science there, but it’s not always as obvious as you might think. So it’s very good to have a site analysis done.

And along those lines, with our new Northfield Solarworks initiative, which we’re just in the process of putting together, probably the first thing that will happen is that once we get a critical mass of interested parties committed, we will have a bulk buy of solar site analyses done… We’ll work with a specific contractor in Minneapolis who’s in the process of doing this kind of thing in the southeast Minneapolis area already. He’s agreed that he would love to do it in Northfield as well, and I’m very confident that he can get these solar site analyses done at a significant discount…So people will be able to take that step here in Northfield, and they’ll be able to participate in this bulk-buy process and get a solar site analysis done at below-market cost as well up front.

Once you have that done, you can get a bid from a contractor. Or if you’re really ambitious you can design a system yourself or with some assistance from somebody else. You can purchase and install equipment yourself. Some people like to do that kind of thing. A lot of people don’t. I’m probably one who would elect not to do that myself. I like doing some do-it-yourself stuff but I don’t have as much time and energy for that as I would like and in many cases I’d just rather pay somebody else to do it right.

So in that case you’d go through a solar contractor, and there are a limited number of solar contractors on the market right now. It is very limited, unfortunately, because that has not been a burgeoning industry in the recent past. But as I said we here in Northfield are fortunate in that I’ve gotten a commitment from IPS Solar in Minneapolis to work with us on this solar bulk buy.

So it should be possible to move ahead in a very expeditious manner. With a little bit of luck by mid-summer we’ll be installing the first systems, and we’ll take it from there. We’re certainly hopeful that if this is a positive experience in the first year, we’ll be doing this in subsequent years as well—until such time as the market is more mature, and then just let it go and you don’t need to organize bulk buys because the market forces have taken over. I’m guessing that the next few years at least we’ll probably want to do this, if it goes well this first year.

Ostrem: What kinds of skepticism have you encountered about your goal of energy self-sufficiency for Northfield? I’m thinking of the comments we’ve heard from leaders such as Senator Grassley of Iowa and Vice President Cheney about the American lifestyle requiring the consumption of oil. How do you counter that kind of skepticism and that kind of attitude?

Anderson: Well, I imagine that there’s a significant minority at least of the population that couldn’t be swayed at this point. I think we’re somewhat fortunate in Northfield that that percentage is probably smaller here than it is in many communities around the country, but there still are some very skeptical folks here. And the approach I’ve tried to take is to just be as straightforward and factual as possible and talk about demonstrated potential with demonstrated, available technology. And it’s always critically important, I think, to point out that moving rapidly in the direction of energy self-sufficiency is something that is going to be an economic benefit to the community and not an economic drain.

And I think that’s something that can’t be emphasized enough because, for example, on a national level, when people criticize any efforts to combat global warming by reducing greenhouse gas emissions, carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion in particular, they’ll trot out the argument that it’s going to be such a significant drag on the economy that it just isn’t warranted, even if global warming is a real threat. And that simply is not true. There have been very reputable studies done on the national level showing that we can make the transition away from fossil fuels quite rapidly and quite aggressively, with no discernible harm to the economy, and possibly even significant benefits.

I think it’s becoming clearer by the day that it’s not a question of if oil and natural gas are going to become exorbitantly expensive, it’s just a question of when. By now we’ve reached a stage where senior petroleum geologists, senior oil industry executives, very well-respected energy analysts, are all saying more or less the same thing, and that is that there’s only so much oil out there, there’s only so much natural gas out there. Yeah, we’re gong to continue to find some more, but it’s going to become increasingly difficult and expensive, energetically and dollarwise, to get it out of the ground and get it to market. Sooner or later demand is going to outstrip productive capability worldwide, and then we’re going to be in a world of hurt, unless we’ve really prepared for that day. It’s just a question of when and not if.

Some very serious analysts think we’ve already reached the point at which maximum oil production worldwide has been reached. Others say, no, it’s a few years out. The real optimists are saying no, it’s a few decades out. But it’s literally a question of when, not if.

If that doesn’t convince skeptics that we need to be moving toward energy self-sufficiency, however you define it…And I define it, for a community like Northfield, as there being the means to produce and supply all the energy that the community needs locally, from local resources. And I’m not talking about small coal-fired power plants or natural gas-fired power plants or maybe nuclear power plants, because we don’t have any coal, we don’t have any oil, we don’t have any natural gas, and we don’t have any uranium.

What we do have is sunshine and wind and the ability to grow biomatter, whether it’s in the form of agricultural crops or trees or specially grown energy crops. You know, it’s all around us. Solar energy is everywhere and we just need to get smart about capturing it in its various readily available forms, and it’s technologically possible to do so now. It’s very economical to do so in the case of utility-scale wind projects, when developed properly, and it’s becoming much more economically viable to do solar projects now than it ever has been in the past.

As always, there’s still plenty of room to improve the efficiency of our economy…especially in a community the size of Northfield. There are all sorts of opportunities for building in efficiencies through use of better technology, and also through relatively minor lifestyle changes. Now I’m not talking about living in a dark hole. I’m talking about walking and biking places to get your exercise rather than driving to the gym. Very few people live more than two miles from downtown Northfield, if you’re within the city limits, and, you know, that’s a half-hour walk or an eight- or ten-minute bike ride, depending on whether you’re going downhill or uphill. You can do without a car for a lot of trips in this community and you can reduce your petroleum consumption just by doing that.

If I could sit down one-on-one with any skeptic, I would like to think that I could convince him or her that this is achievable, and it’s a good thing to try to achieve, not something that’s going to be a burden or an economic drag.

Ostrem: Do you think about expanding your impact beyond Northfield, and if so, how?

Anderson: Yeah, I’ve thought about that and talked about that with lots of people ever since RENew Northfield got started. While it doesn’t show up in our mission statement, we’ve talked a lot about Northfield being a model for other communities that we can begin to make headway on these issues. I take some pride in the fact that we are viewed that way already by people in the energy/environmental community around the state.

People know that there are some interesting things happening in Northfield. I know from conversations I’ve had with Richard Strong, the facilities director at Carleton, and Pete Sandberg, the facilities director at St. Olaf, that they regularly get phone calls from people around the state or around the country inquiring about their wind projects and how they were able to do them. And there have been any number of groups of people who have come to tour the Carleton wind turbine. I’ve gotten any number of calls or emails, and I have been invited to speak at a number of events and communities around Minnesota and as far away as Montana. People are really keenly interested in this concept of community energy self-sufficiency—smaller, more human-scale energy development…with local ownership and local economic benefit. People really like this idea. I clearly do think that in a small way we’ve already become a model.

There’s also a more formal way to spread the word, and that is through some statewide or regional initiatives that, in some cases, have been going on for a long time. There’s a group called the Minnesota Seed Coalition, for example, SEED standing for Sustainable Energy for Economic Development, and that’s a group of interested non-profits and governmental and quasi-governmental agencies who work on policy-related matters to advance a clean-energy agenda at the state level. And I’ve been actively involved in that.
There’s also a statewide initiative that was launched in the summer of 2003…called the Clean Energy Resource Teams. There are now Clean Energy Resource Teams in six regions of the state. The Southeast/South-central community resource team covers the fifteen-county area of southeastern and south-central Minnesota, and several Northfielders have been actively involved in that, myself included…And we’ve had some impact regionally as a result of that.

So there are a variety of ways in which this has been a vehicle not only to move our community forward but to give other folks some ideas about what they can do in their own communities and provide an opportunity for people to learn some lessons about what does work and what doesn’t work, what’s been effective, what hasn’t been quite so effective.We’re part of a bigger movement. It’s by no means entirely because of RENew Northfield. As I said, there’s this groundswell of interest out there in communities taking control of their energy and environmental future and getting away from the central station power plant model and moving toward a model where you’re producing electricity, you’re producing fuels in your own area using local resources that you have available, renewable resources.

Ostrem: Are there any towns that are models for Northfield, that are already out ahead of Northfield on this?

Anderson: Well, there are other communities that are doing somewhat similar things. And every community is different. For example, Austin, Texas—much bigger city—they have their own municipal electric utility. They’ve had a very aggressive marketing campaign to increase the percentage of their power that’s produced from renewables in the past few years. And that’s been very successful. I believe the mayor of Austin recently announced the goal of the city getting 50 percent of its electricity from renewables by, I forget the exact date, 2015 or something like that—which is fabulous, especially for a city the size of Austin.

There are other examples of communities that are trying to do similar things, but nobody that I’m really aware of that’s doing anything very specifically like what we’re trying to achieve—explicitly saying we want to become energy self-sufficient, and we want to move in that direction as rapidly as possible. But I think there are a lot of individuals out there and a lot of organizations that’d be very interested in making that move, especially if we can make some more headway here in Northfield.

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